Targeting Jews and Jewish anti-Zionists is explained by Miller’s Failure to Understand Why Imperialism Supports Zionism and Genocide in Gaza – As Such It is Anti-Semitic
I don't agree. Jewish identity is based on many things but in my view if someone identifies as a Jew then that is what they are . But more to the point when Israel carries out its horrendous war crimes in the name of Jews then it is incumbent upon them to speak up and say 'not in our name'.
That is why it is so despicable of David Miller to target these of all people.
Yes I have WhatsApped David but he hasn't responded. More than once. As long as David is trying to cause divisions in the Palestine Solidarity movement by targeting Jewish anti-Zionists and playing footsie with open neo-Nazis there is little to be done.
I have never made a good deal about being Jewish and anti-Zionist. I use being Jewish to delegitimise Zionist accusations of antisemitism. I have also grown a thick skin to Zionist abuse. However it is traumatic to some/many Jews because of breaks with family/personal pressure tc.
To be called a traitor by Zionists and then for fuckwits like Miller to imply that such Jews are 'infiltrators' is really beyond contempt.
I’ll discuss (debate?) this with you. I promise you Im certainly not Miller. I’ve never even heard of him before you wrote of him. And I’m not a celebrity. But I don’t like Judaism, I think Zionists effectively control US foreign policy, think atheist anti Zionist jews should stop identifying as Jews, and I’m not an anti semite.
You say you don't like Judaism. Does that apply to all religions? If not that seems suspect.
No Zionists don't control US foreign policy. Rather US foreign policy is Zionist as is all Western foreign policy. As for what anti-Zionists Jews should do we are not inclined to follow your advice. THe Zionists do what they do in our name. Your suggesting that we abandon the field to them. Your advice is useless in terms of supporting the Palestinians and based on this I'm not wasting my time reading your essay as I know I won't agree with it.
Sure being 'anti-Judaism' isn't antisemitism. In the same way as being anti-Islam isn't Islamaphobia! Likewise disparaging Jews isn't antisemitism although it's difficult to know what else it can be.
Anti-Christianity could well be racist in circumstances like Syria or Iraq today.
You again fall for the fallacy of Semites, just as Wilhelm Marr, who popularised the term anti-Semitism did. It is a linguistic not racial definition.
I repeat you can be anti-religion without being racist but if you singled out a particular religion chances are that you are a racist.
I don't defend the Torah or for that matter the Koran or New Testament. I'm sorry you don't understand what I am saying. This particular stupidity is inexcusable. I didn't quote passages from the bible about welcoming strangers because I approved or believed in the bible. I simply pointed out that the Zionists plunder parts of the bible they like, the most anti-gentile or atavistic and ignore the other parts they don't like. You interpret that as supporting the Torah because you don't understand my original argument.
You may support justice in Palestine but that does not make you an anti-Zionist. I quote from Isaiah and the Prophets to show that Judaism does not demand genocide anymore than certain racist parts of the Quoran demand genocide. Zionism like fundmental Islam picks and chooses which parts of religious texts to cite and which parts to ignore. Why is this obvious argument beyond your comprehension?
I think it was Joshua not Moses who commanded genocide but no matter since neither individual actually existed. its apocryphal. The Prophets represent a different tradition from that of Joshua and other genocidal figures in the Bible. Just goes to show that you can pick and choose. Religion doesn't cause anyone to do anything. It is after all a reflection of men and women not their motivator.
If you say you are anti-Islam or anti-Judaism then yes you fall within an anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic tradition. Same with Christianity. It is politics that drives Zionism. If you knew anything about the opponents of Zionism, the fiercest opponents were the Orthodox when it came on the scene.
You are no different to the Catholic priest Justinas Pranaitis, the author of The Talmud Unmasked (1892) who alleged a Jewish conspiracy against non-Jews. Pranaitis gave ‘expert’ testimony in the 1913 Kiev blood libel trial of Mendel Beilis who was charged with murdering a Christian boy as part of a religious ritual murder. However Pranaitis was discredited under cross-examination and Beilis was acquitted. Pranaitis too said he was merely anti-Judaism but of course he was in the tradition of feudal anti-Semitism.
Biden today of course is senile as well as being corrupt. However when he was a young senator he was clearly attuned to the needs of US imperialism as was Alexander Haig and others. Or does US imperialism support Israel against its own interests?
Those who look to religion for answers look down the telescope through the wrong end.
I have tremendous admiration for you but Jewish identity is a nonsense based on bagels and the holocaust of Palestinians at this point. If you're not a religious person, I don't see what else there is to cling to. I renounced my Jewish identity for that reason.
"Your advice is useless in terms of supporting the Palestinians and based on this I'm not wasting my time reading your essay as I know I won't agree with it."
You will not read my essay because you know you won't agree with it? You think it's a waste of time for you to read essays you believe you won't agree with? That would imply you do not challenge yourself intellectually or spiritually. You should probably rethink what you wrote. It wouldn't only help Palestinians, it would also help americans and Europeans who are anti zionists. as it is right now, "secular" Jews(a misnomer) reinforce the myth that jews are a race and that criticising jews, which zionists certainly are, is a form of racism, AKA antisemitism, accusations which are being used to squash the freedom of speech, which you know intimately. If you were to disavow your Jewish identity Zionists will either have to insist people like you are still jewish because of your ancestry,label you a "self hating jew", and sound like nazis, or they will accept that you are not a jew anymore, and reinforce the idea that your criticism of jews is ideological and cultural and thus not racism or "antisemitism"--and thus they are within the bounds of cultural and ideological criticism. The more vocal ex jews there are criticizing Judaism, the less powerful the slander of "antisemitism" will be against people who want to challenge any *Jewish* supremacism and power, which is currently almost all in the hands of zionists. There would be relatively little controversy about people talking abstractly about christian power or supremacism or muslim power or supremacism. Anti zionists who gaslight about Jewish power are helping to protect Zionists, whether intentional or not. As it is of now, anti Zionist judaism has had little to no power in american politics or the world for the past eighty years, and the current genocide in Palestine only shows the level of imbalance.
"You say you don't like Judaism. Does that apply to all religions? If not that seems suspect."
I'm assuming that you didn't read my other comment before commenting here? And didn't bother editing this one? Because I explicitly say that Christianity is garbage in that one. Do I dislike all religions? No. I consider "religion" to be a fundamental component of the human psyche, including mine. I do dislike all the modern major religions in general in the sense that I think core elements of their ethos and mythology are unethical -- e.g. Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Communism. Only Judaism though traditionally has a pseudo-racial genocidal devotion to the conquest of Palestine, which is the primary reason Jews are leading a genocidal conquest in Palestine today. There is an abundance of evidence of it, but it will require reading essays and books which contain conclusions that disparage your religion.
"No Zionists don't control US foreign policy. Rather US foreign policy is Zionist as is all Western foreign policy."
Yes us foreign policy is Zionist because Zionists have captured both political parties of the united states. If it were not for the behaviors and actions of zionists, Jewish and christian, but primarily Jewish, "western" foreign policy would not be zionist. There is an abundance of evidence for that as well, but will require reading books and essays that come to conclusions that you already disagree with.
"As for what anti-Zionists Jews should do we are not inclined to follow your advice. "
I'm wager lots won't. Especially those who do not read essays they believe they won't agree with. Minds like that are usually lost causes. But speaking to them in public may be fruitful to other more curious and sophisticated minds.
" THe Zionists do what they do in our name. Your suggesting that we abandon the field to them."
They do what they do in the name of Israel. Yes I suggest you abandon the name of Israel to them. Israel is the name of the cult of judaism given by the character of Yahweh in the Torah. Yahweh then commands Israel to carry out a genocide in his name, in the name of Israel, and to wantonly pillage and rape in the lands of Canaan, in the lands of Palestine. Yes abandon Israel to them. Yes abandon Judaism to them. Abandon "Jew" to them. Abandon it to Abraham, Jacob, moses, Joshua, to David, to Saul, to Isaiah, to Ezra, to the Maccabees, to the Hasmoneans, to the Sadducees, to the Pharisees, to the Zealots, to Maimonides, to Herzl, to Kook, to the Irgun, to to the Haganah, to Netanyahu, to Ben-Gvir, to Smotrich. Leave the "faith of your fathers" just like Abraham left his. You think the cult of Israel owns you by blood? why can abraham leave his father's house but everyone who is born to a person who is in the cult of israel must pledge eternal loyalty to the house of israel? Your loyalty is a choice. You choose to be a "Jew" and identify as a "Jew" and have the name Israel; which means you choose to have the name that has for 2500 years glorified the massacre and enslavement of innocents of "the nations" in their prayers to the character Yahweh.
Thousands of years before I was even born the "name" that you swear fealty to thought it right for me to be enslaved because of my ancestry and the fact I do not genuflect to a tyrannical superstition. I have read the Torah. I have read the Tanakh. I have read the Talmud. I have read Maccabees. I have read the Talmud. I have read Maimonides. I have read Herzl. I have read lots of stuff that I disagree with and believed I would disagree with before I read it. Unlike you, I do not find that to be a waste of my time. You want me to ignore that while your "people", that you choose, go around the world trying to punish people for criticizing them for carrying out a genocide? Yes zionists are Jews, they are the most powerful, numerous, Jewish sect in the world, and more resemble the founders of Judaism of any other modern sect of Judaism, so they certainly represent Jews, a cult not a race. If you don't like that, leave the cult. Don't slanderously suggest that I'm racist for pointing it out.
Your question sounds ridiculous to me. It would be as if someone asked me why I would abandon the name of Christian to Catholics or evangelical Christians or zionist Christians. Clearly I would "abandon the field" to them because I am not a Christian even though lots of my ancestors were, and I find its central myths to be an abomination, and those sects certainly reflect the values and ideas of Paul and the lunatic wannabe slave master of the universe Jesus than I do. Christian fits them. As does Jew fits the idf. Ben-Gvir certainly resembles Moses more than Einstein did, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, Ben-Gurion resembles Joshua more than you do. If we want a bad cult to lose its power, it's very helpful if the "good" members denounce it and don't stick around gaslighting on its behalf and calling all people who label the cult as bad, racists.
I'm sorry but I don't have time to read this. Let me just emphasise that Zionism is a political not a religious movement although it cloaks itself in the garb of religion.
I agree that 'Anti zionists who gaslight about Jewish power are helping to protect Zionists, whether intentional or not.' In fact they are not anti-Zionists since it's not Zionism they are challenging.
Yes I do read critical essays I don't agree with but i don't have unlimited time
Well that is very dismissive of you. I imagine you would have the time if I were David Morris?
Anyway, Jewish Zionism is a political *and* religious movement. Just like Judaism, which it is a sect of. The formation of Israel in the Torah is both political and religious. Sometimes politics and religion go hand in hand; in fact historically and anthropologically that is the norm.
Saying that Zionism cloaks itself in Judaism would be a sensible statement if the religion in question was something like Taoism and not Judaism. Taoism wasn’t mythologically established by xenophobic genocidal slavers devoted to a pseudo-ethnic cult named Israel who conquered Palestine. Judaism, aka *Israel*, was. Thus, Zionism is not “cloaking itself in the garb of Judaism”, it is *representing* it. Zionism isn’t cloaking itself in the garb Judaism; you are actually trying to cloak Judaism in a garb of virtue. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt it is from an ignorant pathological love and not deceit. Even though sometimes they are equally dangerous. I’ll urge you again to read my essay, because if it is ignorance and not deceit, there is a lot you could benefit to learn about Judaism. You may disagree with some of my conclusions, but a lot of it is simply hard data. You can’t erase Deuteronomy and the legal writings of Maimonides, as much as anti Zionist Jews may be ashamed of them.
The right response would be to leave the cult, not cloak it. Especially when the cult is carrying out a genocide in the same place depicted in its revered book. I hope you took the time to read this. It is your choice to be a Jew.
“Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”
Totally agree. To keep emphasizing ‘the Jewish Lobby’ or ‘the donor class’ can too easily slide into anti-semitism. Despite the impacts of pro-Israel groups in Europe and North America, the primary purpose of the State of Israel is an enforcer of imperial interests in West Asia, first for Great Britain and now the US and Europe, and to maintain imperial hegemony. To focus on supposed negative characteristics of Jews and Judaism as responsible for the current genocide in Palestine, instead of the primary imperial purpose of the State of Israel, is anti-semitism. And we can see anti-semites now trying to tag along with Palestine solidarity movements seeing an opportunity to bash Jews. As Max Blumenthal has succinctly stated - fanatical zionists and anti-semites both make the same false claim that Israel represents all Jews. A plague on both their houses.
"the primary imperial purpose of the State of Israel"
The primary "imperial" purpose of the state of israel is the same primary "imperial" purpose found in the Torah, the foundational text of judaism; it is the establishment of a state encompassing all of Palestine that privileges members of the cult of Israel using whatever means necessary, including ethnic cleansing and genocide. There is no strategic interest for the united states for it to support israel's genocide. It does so because it is captured by Zionists who are more devoted to establishing Jewish supremacism in Palestine than it is to the united states.
"- fanatical zionists and anti-semites both make the same false claim that Israel represents all Jews. "
Israel represents *most* jews; and most importantly it represents the most powerful and influential jews. And it represents judaism, just like the catholic church represents Christianity. Does it matter if it doesn't represent *all* Christians? No. It is still a representation of Christianity, and *all* Christians should reckon with it and not gaslight non Christians and claim that Catholicism has nothing to do with christianity. And especially they should not slander people as racists merely for suggesting that catholicism represents christianity.
Fanatical zionists and anti Semites also talk about the earth being a sphere -- it doesn't mean that we should be flat earthers. You know what jews and nazis have in common? They have a tradition of conceiving jews racially. They have a tendency to believe that some people are irrevocably born Jewish. The earth is a sphere indeed, but jews are not a race or ethnicity. Anti zionist jews should leave judaism if they are atheists and don't like genocide against Palestinians, because a central character of the Torah is a deity that commands the genocide of Palestinians. It seems like many anti-Zionists are even more concerned about protecting the reputation of Jews than they are about justice in Palestine. if a jew cannot honor moses, they should really reconsider whether they want to identify with the cult he commanded to carry out a genocide simply because their ancestors identified with the cult. What might people feel of a Neo nazi who says he only identifies as a Nazi because some of his ancestors did, but also claims that he does not honor Hitler? Would disparaging him for that be racism towards "germans"?
Unless a person's disparagement of jews or judaism stems from a conception of jews as a race or ethnicity, it is not antisemitism. suggesting that jews and judaism cannot be disparaged without racial animosity is an expression of Jewish exceptionalism, an export of Jewish supremacism. I wouldn't be surprised if some Jewish exceptionalists would make the claim that blaming the genocide of Canaanites on judaism is antisemitism.
Agree. There is a growing attempt to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism, both from zionists and antisemites. We must not legitimise this attempt, as it in turn delegitimises our whole campaign.
Actually non-Jewish zionists like Starmer, Akehurst, Biden, Harris are at least as harmful as any others, so making this about Jews lets them off the hook; and there are of course many Jews who oppose Israel.
You’re right, I think colonialism is the underlying engine here, not membership of any ethnic, cultural or religious group. And that is also the case with Islamophobia in the UK. Been going on since Israel was in short trousers. It was in fact necessary for Israel to get off the ground. If we had cared what the Arabs thought or valued their rights equally with other ethnicities, it would have been impossible to give their land to someone else without their approval.
It’s easy to understand why miller is angry, but if he allows that to turn into an indiscriminate hatred of Jews he undermines us all and hurts Palestine.
Anti Judaism isn’t Anti-Semitism. Disparaging Judaism, or even Jews, is not sufficient grounds for accusing anyone of anti-Semitism. Palestinians have every right to have prejudice against Jews, as Palestinians are currently being genocided by the “Jewish State” of Israel. Jews aren’t a race. They are a cult. Just like Christians. Anti Christianity isn’t racist. Disparaging Christianity, or even Christians, is insufficient grounds for accusing anyone of racism.
Anti-Semitism, if we base it on its historical origin and not the political machinations of Zionists, is bigotry toward Jews that is founded on the irrational idea that Jews are a race—aka “Semites.”
Accusing people of being anti semitic for expressing anti Judaism is slander, and feeds the myth that Jews are a race and that Jews and Semites are indivisible—an ironically racially essentialist idea that is the foundation of anti Semitism. It also erases the fact that lots of Semites aren’t Jewish. Israel is carrying out a genocide against mostly “Semitic people.” Fact. Non Jewish Semitic people. It’s what Israel did in the Torah too.
It’s quite quaint and ridiculous for an atheist Jew, Im inferring, to defend the Tanakh and all its disgusting savagery by quoting a few passages of it as if a quote about treating people in exodus well somehow redeems the passages in Deuteronomy that explicitely command the extermination of Canaanites. It’s like someone describing a serial killer as a nice guy, because see, he tweeted a few years ago to be friendly to your neighbor. I could write way more about this… but it’s not worth my time—no matter what contempt I have for Judaism, as a religion, it has no direct implication that I have *racial* animosity toward Jews. But I’ve noticed that such a prejudice seems quite common among Jews, and not just Zionists. It seems if people don’t like Judaism and its genocidal slave morality that is presented in the Torah, even if the person says nothing to imply they have a racial conception of Jews, the person is suspected as being anti semitic, and there is a large chance they will get the slanderous and very dangerous accusation that they are an “anti semite” lobbed at them. And they are willing to do that against people who are opposed to the genocide of Gazans. In other words they are willing to slander an ally against anti Zionism as racist if that ally disparages Judaism; which is to say they are displaying their loyalty to Israel (“Israel” is literally the name given to the cult of Israel, aka Judaism, in the Torah)over their loyalty toward people who oppose the genocide but don’t like the religion of Judaism.
blaming the genocide on”imperialism” rather than simply *Zionism*, which is a Jewish sect with a sect of Christianity that is allied with it, is a way of *defending the reputation of Judaism*, rather than confronting the reality that Judaism understandably spawned a genocidal sect that is carrying out exactly what happened in the Torah and has historical precedent in the history of Judaism. Zionism is a Jewish evangelical religious movement dedicated to pseudo racial nationalism (Zionists commonly believe in a Jewish race/“ethnicity”even though it’s superstition) based on the mythology of the Torah. “American Empire” is Zionist propaganda to protect Israel from blame. There were indeed Americans and British who saw some value in Jewish Palestine before Herzl but it was Jews who clearly fired it up. Herzl hadn’t interacted with any state officials meaningfully before he wrote the Jewish State. The Jewish agency wasn’t funded by the British or American governments. There were also Jews prior to the 1840s who at times attempted or contemplated going to Palestine. The call to Zion was always beckoning. The Jews largely responsible(the Irgun) for conquering Palestine were labeled as terrorists by the British and American intelligence. The idea that the formation of Israel was an American or British imperialist plan is not supported by the military behaviors of israel or the way it was labeled by US and British intelligence.
Biden is a lifelong self proclaimed criminal and idiotic Zionist who doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to determine the strategic interests of the United States. He, and other hollow men American Zionists need to sell the completely worthless and trillions of dollars
of wasted of resources and lives that has been sunk into Israel. Why don’t you quote the state department when Israel first was formed. Or Richard Nixon? And opportunists will find personal value in any war. Israel has no overriding strategic interests to the United States. It’s driven by domestic bribery and extortion and deception on the part of Zionists. It’s a Trojan horse. And the theory of “empire” is one of the most potent weapons to hide the scent. Like “weapons of mass destruction.” The U.S. enemies in the Middle East are primarily due to the U.S. funding and arming the genocidal apartheid state of Israel. The reason is simple. Judaism is a pseudonethno supremacist genocidal slaver cult that spawned a sect that is willing to drain and wreck the United States for the vision laid out in the Tanakh and the Likud platform of 1970s: Israel from the river to the sea, with the “the nations” serving it. And Jews, Zionists or not, who try to gaslight or lie about that clear fact which can be read in the Tanakh and heard from the zealots running the Israeli government deserve to be disparaged. If Jews don’t like the genocidal slave cult represented in the Torah, they should leave the cult and stop identifying as Jews. Stop defending arguably the most morally detestable work of literature ever concocted about a tyrannical deity when you don’t even fucking believe in the deity’s existence but only in your superstitious ethnic identification with other people who had ancestors who were part of the cult. My parents were raised Christian. I’m not a Christian and Christianity is garbage. I’m not a racist for that. Fucking stop it. Become an ex Jew. You will have more potency to stop the genocide if that is what you are concerned about rather than just “what is good for the Jews.” You actually fucking include that idea: that Zionism and this genocide is “bad for Jews.” ITS BAD FOR PALESTINIANS AND AMERICANS; IT IS BAD FOR NON JEWS. The Torah didn’t give a fuxn what was “good for Jews”; it cared about what was good for “Israel”, aka forming a cult that militarily controlled Palestine, and the “Jews” who died in the process were *martyrs.* When zealots attacked Rome and started a rebellion, they didn’t care about “what was good for Jews” in the narrow sense that you care about; they cared about the GLORY OF ISRAEL. That’s what this genocide is about. That is all. Oh… and to assist in the rise of the Dark Lord Jesus.
And since you like Isaiah so much:
“ Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.
Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
their kings led in triumphal procession.
For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.” Isaiah 60:10
Stop defending Judaism, aka Israel. It is a genocidal slaver cult. But I do think there are many righteous Jews nonetheless. That is despite the Judaism.
ANTI-SEMITE DISCLAIMER: And... with that all said... his appearance on that show is admittedly sketchy...assuming the description is accurate. Depending on how he talked.. and whether he was like randomly "Nazis are shit", would affect how I'd judge him about it. everything Ive said is no way a defense of miller(who I only am aware of through this one post of yours), only the points I specifically made in response to claims you made about Zionism and Judaism.
I really don't think you are on the same planet as Palestinian supporters and anti-Zionists. Israel's murderous attacks on Palestinians have nothing to do with religion. Religion is merely the badge they wear.
I'm not aware I've defended the Tanakh or any other religious text. I disagree with everything you say.
"I really don't think you are on the same planet as Palestinian supporters and anti-Zionists."
Um, I am an anti-Zionist and I support justice in Palestine. So now, if a person doesn't like Judaism, or attributes the genocide primarily to Judaism, they can't be anti-Zionist or support justice in Palestine? I imagine there are probably a lot of Palestinian anti-Zionists that would probably disagree with that notion. What planet are *you* on?
"Israel's murderous attacks on Palestinians have nothing to do with religion. Religion is merely the badge they wear."
Nothing to do with religion? Are you sure you want to at least have a little nuance with that, like --primarily something else, but religion was a factor? You are so devoted to defending Judaism, I'd almost think you were a Zionist. No matter how devoted the Jews carrying out the genocide are devoted to Israel and the conquest of Palestine, central religious themes of the book they revere, the Torah, its just a badge! Do you think Moses was just wearing the badge of religion when he ordered his followers to carry out a genocide. Actually, that is what Thomas Paine thought; not exactly in the way you seem to be suggesting; he thought Moses was villain. How about you? Hero, villain, misunderstood genocidal slaver?
"Religion" isn't always bad, but its a big part of a lot of war. Humans are religious, like humans breathe. Some religions they form and create are abominations, unfortunately.
"I'm not aware I've defended the Tanakh or any other religious text. I disagree with everything you say."
Dude, in your essay, you quote from Isaiah as an alleged example of how Zionism has supposedly "destroyed Judaism’s moral and ethical traditions." Perhaps you weren't truly aware, but Isaiah is from the Tanakh and Isaiah prophecies that subjugation of "the nations." If you think the "ethical traditions" can be represented by Isaiah, and you uncontextually quote it in honor, you are defending the Tanakh. Judaisms moral and ethical traditions derive from the Tanakh, and even more specifically the Torah.
And are you sure you disagree with "everything I say"? Are you sure you don't want to add some nuance to that? Because what you are suggesting is that you think that anti-judaism is sufficient grounds to accuse someone of anti-semitism. Thats wild. But very valuable information. And one reason why people should begin to criticize anti-Zionist Jews as well, because lots of them are still just as eager to slander people as racists to defend a religion founded by genocidal slavers that is currently carrying out a genocide. It seems like many anti-Zionist Jews want to control the narrative around the genocide so it doesn't harm the reputation of Jews, beyond anything else. Peculiar.
And most ridiculous, you disagree with this?
"Biden is a lifelong self proclaimed criminal and idiotic Zionist who doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to determine the strategic interests of the United States."
Do you think that the Zionist onslaught against Millers from losing his job, being arrested, dragged through the courts has affected his effectiveness against the Zionist? If SPSC have failed to set up a debate between yourself and Miller, have you reached out to him for a one on one before writing this? We need both of you to help fight Zionist and Zionism…preferably together.
I attempted to explain to you why I think your ”attack” on Prof. Miller is wrong, based on classic, logically fallacious arguments and dangerous. You replied to me with the exact same logically fallacious argument tactics. And when I pointed that out to you, you deleted our conversation. That is censorship! It also proves that when your arguments are challenged you can’t respond rationally to considered, intelligent debate.
I could reply again to this further misrepresentation of Prof. Miller”s position. But will you allow it? Or do you fear genuine debate that possibly undermines your credibility.
You have started this new article on substack again with two FUNDAMENTALLY FALSE premises. One you perhaps are promulgating subconsciously. I hope your readers have noticed it.
It is this: ”…For Atzmon, like David Miller, there are no Jewish anti-Zionists. They are simply a fifth column…” That is a ”strawman” misrepresentation!
The second is the classic logically fallacious argument of ’ad hominem’.
I can explain further. But only AFTER you allow this response without misrepresenting me or my argument with the same to logical fallacies.
Very very interesting. I was worried it was just another smear article fracturing the movement but actually it was a well sourced article without hysteria and you raised some good points.
I suggest you reconsider, Sam. It definitely IS a ”smear article”. Calling anyone an anti-semite without a very just and factually cause is definitely being used as a poltical tool to discredit people who raise VALID points that a certain group of people want suppressed. And that definitely IS occurring here. His whole argument relies on the two logically fallacious arguments of 1.) ad hominem and 2.) strawman misrepresentation of Prof. Miller’s actual position.
A depressing read but your bring the receipts, as ever. David Miller has done some great work on Islamophobia, etc prior to his sacking by Bristol but his recent 'journalism' has become worrying and felt as if it was veering into clickbait - your article gives this a disturbing context. Thank you for this Tony.
I don't agree. Jewish identity is based on many things but in my view if someone identifies as a Jew then that is what they are . But more to the point when Israel carries out its horrendous war crimes in the name of Jews then it is incumbent upon them to speak up and say 'not in our name'.
That is why it is so despicable of David Miller to target these of all people.
Yes I have WhatsApped David but he hasn't responded. More than once. As long as David is trying to cause divisions in the Palestine Solidarity movement by targeting Jewish anti-Zionists and playing footsie with open neo-Nazis there is little to be done.
I have never made a good deal about being Jewish and anti-Zionist. I use being Jewish to delegitimise Zionist accusations of antisemitism. I have also grown a thick skin to Zionist abuse. However it is traumatic to some/many Jews because of breaks with family/personal pressure tc.
To be called a traitor by Zionists and then for fuckwits like Miller to imply that such Jews are 'infiltrators' is really beyond contempt.
I’ll discuss (debate?) this with you. I promise you Im certainly not Miller. I’ve never even heard of him before you wrote of him. And I’m not a celebrity. But I don’t like Judaism, I think Zionists effectively control US foreign policy, think atheist anti Zionist jews should stop identifying as Jews, and I’m not an anti semite.
I’ve written an 80 page essay(book?) on this topic, which you can read here if you like: https://minorityreport.substack.com/p/the-children-of-amalek
You say you don't like Judaism. Does that apply to all religions? If not that seems suspect.
No Zionists don't control US foreign policy. Rather US foreign policy is Zionist as is all Western foreign policy. As for what anti-Zionists Jews should do we are not inclined to follow your advice. THe Zionists do what they do in our name. Your suggesting that we abandon the field to them. Your advice is useless in terms of supporting the Palestinians and based on this I'm not wasting my time reading your essay as I know I won't agree with it.
I suggest you have a rethink
weird. sub stack seems to have moved my response under a different comment thread.
I don't know what you are going on about. I haven't deleted your comment, nonsense thought it is!
Sure being 'anti-Judaism' isn't antisemitism. In the same way as being anti-Islam isn't Islamaphobia! Likewise disparaging Jews isn't antisemitism although it's difficult to know what else it can be.
Anti-Christianity could well be racist in circumstances like Syria or Iraq today.
You again fall for the fallacy of Semites, just as Wilhelm Marr, who popularised the term anti-Semitism did. It is a linguistic not racial definition.
I repeat you can be anti-religion without being racist but if you singled out a particular religion chances are that you are a racist.
I don't defend the Torah or for that matter the Koran or New Testament. I'm sorry you don't understand what I am saying. This particular stupidity is inexcusable. I didn't quote passages from the bible about welcoming strangers because I approved or believed in the bible. I simply pointed out that the Zionists plunder parts of the bible they like, the most anti-gentile or atavistic and ignore the other parts they don't like. You interpret that as supporting the Torah because you don't understand my original argument.
You may support justice in Palestine but that does not make you an anti-Zionist. I quote from Isaiah and the Prophets to show that Judaism does not demand genocide anymore than certain racist parts of the Quoran demand genocide. Zionism like fundmental Islam picks and chooses which parts of religious texts to cite and which parts to ignore. Why is this obvious argument beyond your comprehension?
I think it was Joshua not Moses who commanded genocide but no matter since neither individual actually existed. its apocryphal. The Prophets represent a different tradition from that of Joshua and other genocidal figures in the Bible. Just goes to show that you can pick and choose. Religion doesn't cause anyone to do anything. It is after all a reflection of men and women not their motivator.
If you say you are anti-Islam or anti-Judaism then yes you fall within an anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic tradition. Same with Christianity. It is politics that drives Zionism. If you knew anything about the opponents of Zionism, the fiercest opponents were the Orthodox when it came on the scene.
You are no different to the Catholic priest Justinas Pranaitis, the author of The Talmud Unmasked (1892) who alleged a Jewish conspiracy against non-Jews. Pranaitis gave ‘expert’ testimony in the 1913 Kiev blood libel trial of Mendel Beilis who was charged with murdering a Christian boy as part of a religious ritual murder. However Pranaitis was discredited under cross-examination and Beilis was acquitted. Pranaitis too said he was merely anti-Judaism but of course he was in the tradition of feudal anti-Semitism.
Biden today of course is senile as well as being corrupt. However when he was a young senator he was clearly attuned to the needs of US imperialism as was Alexander Haig and others. Or does US imperialism support Israel against its own interests?
Those who look to religion for answers look down the telescope through the wrong end.
I have tremendous admiration for you but Jewish identity is a nonsense based on bagels and the holocaust of Palestinians at this point. If you're not a religious person, I don't see what else there is to cling to. I renounced my Jewish identity for that reason.
"Your advice is useless in terms of supporting the Palestinians and based on this I'm not wasting my time reading your essay as I know I won't agree with it."
You will not read my essay because you know you won't agree with it? You think it's a waste of time for you to read essays you believe you won't agree with? That would imply you do not challenge yourself intellectually or spiritually. You should probably rethink what you wrote. It wouldn't only help Palestinians, it would also help americans and Europeans who are anti zionists. as it is right now, "secular" Jews(a misnomer) reinforce the myth that jews are a race and that criticising jews, which zionists certainly are, is a form of racism, AKA antisemitism, accusations which are being used to squash the freedom of speech, which you know intimately. If you were to disavow your Jewish identity Zionists will either have to insist people like you are still jewish because of your ancestry,label you a "self hating jew", and sound like nazis, or they will accept that you are not a jew anymore, and reinforce the idea that your criticism of jews is ideological and cultural and thus not racism or "antisemitism"--and thus they are within the bounds of cultural and ideological criticism. The more vocal ex jews there are criticizing Judaism, the less powerful the slander of "antisemitism" will be against people who want to challenge any *Jewish* supremacism and power, which is currently almost all in the hands of zionists. There would be relatively little controversy about people talking abstractly about christian power or supremacism or muslim power or supremacism. Anti zionists who gaslight about Jewish power are helping to protect Zionists, whether intentional or not. As it is of now, anti Zionist judaism has had little to no power in american politics or the world for the past eighty years, and the current genocide in Palestine only shows the level of imbalance.
"You say you don't like Judaism. Does that apply to all religions? If not that seems suspect."
I'm assuming that you didn't read my other comment before commenting here? And didn't bother editing this one? Because I explicitly say that Christianity is garbage in that one. Do I dislike all religions? No. I consider "religion" to be a fundamental component of the human psyche, including mine. I do dislike all the modern major religions in general in the sense that I think core elements of their ethos and mythology are unethical -- e.g. Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Communism. Only Judaism though traditionally has a pseudo-racial genocidal devotion to the conquest of Palestine, which is the primary reason Jews are leading a genocidal conquest in Palestine today. There is an abundance of evidence of it, but it will require reading essays and books which contain conclusions that disparage your religion.
"No Zionists don't control US foreign policy. Rather US foreign policy is Zionist as is all Western foreign policy."
Yes us foreign policy is Zionist because Zionists have captured both political parties of the united states. If it were not for the behaviors and actions of zionists, Jewish and christian, but primarily Jewish, "western" foreign policy would not be zionist. There is an abundance of evidence for that as well, but will require reading books and essays that come to conclusions that you already disagree with.
"As for what anti-Zionists Jews should do we are not inclined to follow your advice. "
I'm wager lots won't. Especially those who do not read essays they believe they won't agree with. Minds like that are usually lost causes. But speaking to them in public may be fruitful to other more curious and sophisticated minds.
" THe Zionists do what they do in our name. Your suggesting that we abandon the field to them."
They do what they do in the name of Israel. Yes I suggest you abandon the name of Israel to them. Israel is the name of the cult of judaism given by the character of Yahweh in the Torah. Yahweh then commands Israel to carry out a genocide in his name, in the name of Israel, and to wantonly pillage and rape in the lands of Canaan, in the lands of Palestine. Yes abandon Israel to them. Yes abandon Judaism to them. Abandon "Jew" to them. Abandon it to Abraham, Jacob, moses, Joshua, to David, to Saul, to Isaiah, to Ezra, to the Maccabees, to the Hasmoneans, to the Sadducees, to the Pharisees, to the Zealots, to Maimonides, to Herzl, to Kook, to the Irgun, to to the Haganah, to Netanyahu, to Ben-Gvir, to Smotrich. Leave the "faith of your fathers" just like Abraham left his. You think the cult of Israel owns you by blood? why can abraham leave his father's house but everyone who is born to a person who is in the cult of israel must pledge eternal loyalty to the house of israel? Your loyalty is a choice. You choose to be a "Jew" and identify as a "Jew" and have the name Israel; which means you choose to have the name that has for 2500 years glorified the massacre and enslavement of innocents of "the nations" in their prayers to the character Yahweh.
Thousands of years before I was even born the "name" that you swear fealty to thought it right for me to be enslaved because of my ancestry and the fact I do not genuflect to a tyrannical superstition. I have read the Torah. I have read the Tanakh. I have read the Talmud. I have read Maccabees. I have read the Talmud. I have read Maimonides. I have read Herzl. I have read lots of stuff that I disagree with and believed I would disagree with before I read it. Unlike you, I do not find that to be a waste of my time. You want me to ignore that while your "people", that you choose, go around the world trying to punish people for criticizing them for carrying out a genocide? Yes zionists are Jews, they are the most powerful, numerous, Jewish sect in the world, and more resemble the founders of Judaism of any other modern sect of Judaism, so they certainly represent Jews, a cult not a race. If you don't like that, leave the cult. Don't slanderously suggest that I'm racist for pointing it out.
Your question sounds ridiculous to me. It would be as if someone asked me why I would abandon the name of Christian to Catholics or evangelical Christians or zionist Christians. Clearly I would "abandon the field" to them because I am not a Christian even though lots of my ancestors were, and I find its central myths to be an abomination, and those sects certainly reflect the values and ideas of Paul and the lunatic wannabe slave master of the universe Jesus than I do. Christian fits them. As does Jew fits the idf. Ben-Gvir certainly resembles Moses more than Einstein did, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, Ben-Gurion resembles Joshua more than you do. If we want a bad cult to lose its power, it's very helpful if the "good" members denounce it and don't stick around gaslighting on its behalf and calling all people who label the cult as bad, racists.
I'm sorry but I don't have time to read this. Let me just emphasise that Zionism is a political not a religious movement although it cloaks itself in the garb of religion.
I agree that 'Anti zionists who gaslight about Jewish power are helping to protect Zionists, whether intentional or not.' In fact they are not anti-Zionists since it's not Zionism they are challenging.
Yes I do read critical essays I don't agree with but i don't have unlimited time
Well that is very dismissive of you. I imagine you would have the time if I were David Morris?
Anyway, Jewish Zionism is a political *and* religious movement. Just like Judaism, which it is a sect of. The formation of Israel in the Torah is both political and religious. Sometimes politics and religion go hand in hand; in fact historically and anthropologically that is the norm.
Saying that Zionism cloaks itself in Judaism would be a sensible statement if the religion in question was something like Taoism and not Judaism. Taoism wasn’t mythologically established by xenophobic genocidal slavers devoted to a pseudo-ethnic cult named Israel who conquered Palestine. Judaism, aka *Israel*, was. Thus, Zionism is not “cloaking itself in the garb of Judaism”, it is *representing* it. Zionism isn’t cloaking itself in the garb Judaism; you are actually trying to cloak Judaism in a garb of virtue. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt it is from an ignorant pathological love and not deceit. Even though sometimes they are equally dangerous. I’ll urge you again to read my essay, because if it is ignorance and not deceit, there is a lot you could benefit to learn about Judaism. You may disagree with some of my conclusions, but a lot of it is simply hard data. You can’t erase Deuteronomy and the legal writings of Maimonides, as much as anti Zionist Jews may be ashamed of them.
The right response would be to leave the cult, not cloak it. Especially when the cult is carrying out a genocide in the same place depicted in its revered book. I hope you took the time to read this. It is your choice to be a Jew.
“Our race is the master race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”
– Menahem Begin, 6th Prime Minister of Israel
Totally agree. To keep emphasizing ‘the Jewish Lobby’ or ‘the donor class’ can too easily slide into anti-semitism. Despite the impacts of pro-Israel groups in Europe and North America, the primary purpose of the State of Israel is an enforcer of imperial interests in West Asia, first for Great Britain and now the US and Europe, and to maintain imperial hegemony. To focus on supposed negative characteristics of Jews and Judaism as responsible for the current genocide in Palestine, instead of the primary imperial purpose of the State of Israel, is anti-semitism. And we can see anti-semites now trying to tag along with Palestine solidarity movements seeing an opportunity to bash Jews. As Max Blumenthal has succinctly stated - fanatical zionists and anti-semites both make the same false claim that Israel represents all Jews. A plague on both their houses.
"the primary imperial purpose of the State of Israel"
The primary "imperial" purpose of the state of israel is the same primary "imperial" purpose found in the Torah, the foundational text of judaism; it is the establishment of a state encompassing all of Palestine that privileges members of the cult of Israel using whatever means necessary, including ethnic cleansing and genocide. There is no strategic interest for the united states for it to support israel's genocide. It does so because it is captured by Zionists who are more devoted to establishing Jewish supremacism in Palestine than it is to the united states.
"- fanatical zionists and anti-semites both make the same false claim that Israel represents all Jews. "
Israel represents *most* jews; and most importantly it represents the most powerful and influential jews. And it represents judaism, just like the catholic church represents Christianity. Does it matter if it doesn't represent *all* Christians? No. It is still a representation of Christianity, and *all* Christians should reckon with it and not gaslight non Christians and claim that Catholicism has nothing to do with christianity. And especially they should not slander people as racists merely for suggesting that catholicism represents christianity.
Fanatical zionists and anti Semites also talk about the earth being a sphere -- it doesn't mean that we should be flat earthers. You know what jews and nazis have in common? They have a tradition of conceiving jews racially. They have a tendency to believe that some people are irrevocably born Jewish. The earth is a sphere indeed, but jews are not a race or ethnicity. Anti zionist jews should leave judaism if they are atheists and don't like genocide against Palestinians, because a central character of the Torah is a deity that commands the genocide of Palestinians. It seems like many anti-Zionists are even more concerned about protecting the reputation of Jews than they are about justice in Palestine. if a jew cannot honor moses, they should really reconsider whether they want to identify with the cult he commanded to carry out a genocide simply because their ancestors identified with the cult. What might people feel of a Neo nazi who says he only identifies as a Nazi because some of his ancestors did, but also claims that he does not honor Hitler? Would disparaging him for that be racism towards "germans"?
Unless a person's disparagement of jews or judaism stems from a conception of jews as a race or ethnicity, it is not antisemitism. suggesting that jews and judaism cannot be disparaged without racial animosity is an expression of Jewish exceptionalism, an export of Jewish supremacism. I wouldn't be surprised if some Jewish exceptionalists would make the claim that blaming the genocide of Canaanites on judaism is antisemitism.
Agree. There is a growing attempt to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism, both from zionists and antisemites. We must not legitimise this attempt, as it in turn delegitimises our whole campaign.
Actually non-Jewish zionists like Starmer, Akehurst, Biden, Harris are at least as harmful as any others, so making this about Jews lets them off the hook; and there are of course many Jews who oppose Israel.
You’re right, I think colonialism is the underlying engine here, not membership of any ethnic, cultural or religious group. And that is also the case with Islamophobia in the UK. Been going on since Israel was in short trousers. It was in fact necessary for Israel to get off the ground. If we had cared what the Arabs thought or valued their rights equally with other ethnicities, it would have been impossible to give their land to someone else without their approval.
It’s easy to understand why miller is angry, but if he allows that to turn into an indiscriminate hatred of Jews he undermines us all and hurts Palestine.
Anti Judaism isn’t Anti-Semitism. Disparaging Judaism, or even Jews, is not sufficient grounds for accusing anyone of anti-Semitism. Palestinians have every right to have prejudice against Jews, as Palestinians are currently being genocided by the “Jewish State” of Israel. Jews aren’t a race. They are a cult. Just like Christians. Anti Christianity isn’t racist. Disparaging Christianity, or even Christians, is insufficient grounds for accusing anyone of racism.
Anti-Semitism, if we base it on its historical origin and not the political machinations of Zionists, is bigotry toward Jews that is founded on the irrational idea that Jews are a race—aka “Semites.”
Accusing people of being anti semitic for expressing anti Judaism is slander, and feeds the myth that Jews are a race and that Jews and Semites are indivisible—an ironically racially essentialist idea that is the foundation of anti Semitism. It also erases the fact that lots of Semites aren’t Jewish. Israel is carrying out a genocide against mostly “Semitic people.” Fact. Non Jewish Semitic people. It’s what Israel did in the Torah too.
It’s quite quaint and ridiculous for an atheist Jew, Im inferring, to defend the Tanakh and all its disgusting savagery by quoting a few passages of it as if a quote about treating people in exodus well somehow redeems the passages in Deuteronomy that explicitely command the extermination of Canaanites. It’s like someone describing a serial killer as a nice guy, because see, he tweeted a few years ago to be friendly to your neighbor. I could write way more about this… but it’s not worth my time—no matter what contempt I have for Judaism, as a religion, it has no direct implication that I have *racial* animosity toward Jews. But I’ve noticed that such a prejudice seems quite common among Jews, and not just Zionists. It seems if people don’t like Judaism and its genocidal slave morality that is presented in the Torah, even if the person says nothing to imply they have a racial conception of Jews, the person is suspected as being anti semitic, and there is a large chance they will get the slanderous and very dangerous accusation that they are an “anti semite” lobbed at them. And they are willing to do that against people who are opposed to the genocide of Gazans. In other words they are willing to slander an ally against anti Zionism as racist if that ally disparages Judaism; which is to say they are displaying their loyalty to Israel (“Israel” is literally the name given to the cult of Israel, aka Judaism, in the Torah)over their loyalty toward people who oppose the genocide but don’t like the religion of Judaism.
blaming the genocide on”imperialism” rather than simply *Zionism*, which is a Jewish sect with a sect of Christianity that is allied with it, is a way of *defending the reputation of Judaism*, rather than confronting the reality that Judaism understandably spawned a genocidal sect that is carrying out exactly what happened in the Torah and has historical precedent in the history of Judaism. Zionism is a Jewish evangelical religious movement dedicated to pseudo racial nationalism (Zionists commonly believe in a Jewish race/“ethnicity”even though it’s superstition) based on the mythology of the Torah. “American Empire” is Zionist propaganda to protect Israel from blame. There were indeed Americans and British who saw some value in Jewish Palestine before Herzl but it was Jews who clearly fired it up. Herzl hadn’t interacted with any state officials meaningfully before he wrote the Jewish State. The Jewish agency wasn’t funded by the British or American governments. There were also Jews prior to the 1840s who at times attempted or contemplated going to Palestine. The call to Zion was always beckoning. The Jews largely responsible(the Irgun) for conquering Palestine were labeled as terrorists by the British and American intelligence. The idea that the formation of Israel was an American or British imperialist plan is not supported by the military behaviors of israel or the way it was labeled by US and British intelligence.
Biden is a lifelong self proclaimed criminal and idiotic Zionist who doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to determine the strategic interests of the United States. He, and other hollow men American Zionists need to sell the completely worthless and trillions of dollars
of wasted of resources and lives that has been sunk into Israel. Why don’t you quote the state department when Israel first was formed. Or Richard Nixon? And opportunists will find personal value in any war. Israel has no overriding strategic interests to the United States. It’s driven by domestic bribery and extortion and deception on the part of Zionists. It’s a Trojan horse. And the theory of “empire” is one of the most potent weapons to hide the scent. Like “weapons of mass destruction.” The U.S. enemies in the Middle East are primarily due to the U.S. funding and arming the genocidal apartheid state of Israel. The reason is simple. Judaism is a pseudonethno supremacist genocidal slaver cult that spawned a sect that is willing to drain and wreck the United States for the vision laid out in the Tanakh and the Likud platform of 1970s: Israel from the river to the sea, with the “the nations” serving it. And Jews, Zionists or not, who try to gaslight or lie about that clear fact which can be read in the Tanakh and heard from the zealots running the Israeli government deserve to be disparaged. If Jews don’t like the genocidal slave cult represented in the Torah, they should leave the cult and stop identifying as Jews. Stop defending arguably the most morally detestable work of literature ever concocted about a tyrannical deity when you don’t even fucking believe in the deity’s existence but only in your superstitious ethnic identification with other people who had ancestors who were part of the cult. My parents were raised Christian. I’m not a Christian and Christianity is garbage. I’m not a racist for that. Fucking stop it. Become an ex Jew. You will have more potency to stop the genocide if that is what you are concerned about rather than just “what is good for the Jews.” You actually fucking include that idea: that Zionism and this genocide is “bad for Jews.” ITS BAD FOR PALESTINIANS AND AMERICANS; IT IS BAD FOR NON JEWS. The Torah didn’t give a fuxn what was “good for Jews”; it cared about what was good for “Israel”, aka forming a cult that militarily controlled Palestine, and the “Jews” who died in the process were *martyrs.* When zealots attacked Rome and started a rebellion, they didn’t care about “what was good for Jews” in the narrow sense that you care about; they cared about the GLORY OF ISRAEL. That’s what this genocide is about. That is all. Oh… and to assist in the rise of the Dark Lord Jesus.
And since you like Isaiah so much:
“ Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.
Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
their kings led in triumphal procession.
For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.” Isaiah 60:10
Stop defending Judaism, aka Israel. It is a genocidal slaver cult. But I do think there are many righteous Jews nonetheless. That is despite the Judaism.
ANTI-SEMITE DISCLAIMER: And... with that all said... his appearance on that show is admittedly sketchy...assuming the description is accurate. Depending on how he talked.. and whether he was like randomly "Nazis are shit", would affect how I'd judge him about it. everything Ive said is no way a defense of miller(who I only am aware of through this one post of yours), only the points I specifically made in response to claims you made about Zionism and Judaism.
I really don't think you are on the same planet as Palestinian supporters and anti-Zionists. Israel's murderous attacks on Palestinians have nothing to do with religion. Religion is merely the badge they wear.
I'm not aware I've defended the Tanakh or any other religious text. I disagree with everything you say.
"I really don't think you are on the same planet as Palestinian supporters and anti-Zionists."
Um, I am an anti-Zionist and I support justice in Palestine. So now, if a person doesn't like Judaism, or attributes the genocide primarily to Judaism, they can't be anti-Zionist or support justice in Palestine? I imagine there are probably a lot of Palestinian anti-Zionists that would probably disagree with that notion. What planet are *you* on?
"Israel's murderous attacks on Palestinians have nothing to do with religion. Religion is merely the badge they wear."
Nothing to do with religion? Are you sure you want to at least have a little nuance with that, like --primarily something else, but religion was a factor? You are so devoted to defending Judaism, I'd almost think you were a Zionist. No matter how devoted the Jews carrying out the genocide are devoted to Israel and the conquest of Palestine, central religious themes of the book they revere, the Torah, its just a badge! Do you think Moses was just wearing the badge of religion when he ordered his followers to carry out a genocide. Actually, that is what Thomas Paine thought; not exactly in the way you seem to be suggesting; he thought Moses was villain. How about you? Hero, villain, misunderstood genocidal slaver?
"Religion" isn't always bad, but its a big part of a lot of war. Humans are religious, like humans breathe. Some religions they form and create are abominations, unfortunately.
"I'm not aware I've defended the Tanakh or any other religious text. I disagree with everything you say."
Dude, in your essay, you quote from Isaiah as an alleged example of how Zionism has supposedly "destroyed Judaism’s moral and ethical traditions." Perhaps you weren't truly aware, but Isaiah is from the Tanakh and Isaiah prophecies that subjugation of "the nations." If you think the "ethical traditions" can be represented by Isaiah, and you uncontextually quote it in honor, you are defending the Tanakh. Judaisms moral and ethical traditions derive from the Tanakh, and even more specifically the Torah.
And are you sure you disagree with "everything I say"? Are you sure you don't want to add some nuance to that? Because what you are suggesting is that you think that anti-judaism is sufficient grounds to accuse someone of anti-semitism. Thats wild. But very valuable information. And one reason why people should begin to criticize anti-Zionist Jews as well, because lots of them are still just as eager to slander people as racists to defend a religion founded by genocidal slavers that is currently carrying out a genocide. It seems like many anti-Zionist Jews want to control the narrative around the genocide so it doesn't harm the reputation of Jews, beyond anything else. Peculiar.
And most ridiculous, you disagree with this?
"Biden is a lifelong self proclaimed criminal and idiotic Zionist who doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to determine the strategic interests of the United States."
Do you think that the Zionist onslaught against Millers from losing his job, being arrested, dragged through the courts has affected his effectiveness against the Zionist? If SPSC have failed to set up a debate between yourself and Miller, have you reached out to him for a one on one before writing this? We need both of you to help fight Zionist and Zionism…preferably together.
I attempted to explain to you why I think your ”attack” on Prof. Miller is wrong, based on classic, logically fallacious arguments and dangerous. You replied to me with the exact same logically fallacious argument tactics. And when I pointed that out to you, you deleted our conversation. That is censorship! It also proves that when your arguments are challenged you can’t respond rationally to considered, intelligent debate.
I could reply again to this further misrepresentation of Prof. Miller”s position. But will you allow it? Or do you fear genuine debate that possibly undermines your credibility.
You have started this new article on substack again with two FUNDAMENTALLY FALSE premises. One you perhaps are promulgating subconsciously. I hope your readers have noticed it.
It is this: ”…For Atzmon, like David Miller, there are no Jewish anti-Zionists. They are simply a fifth column…” That is a ”strawman” misrepresentation!
The second is the classic logically fallacious argument of ’ad hominem’.
I can explain further. But only AFTER you allow this response without misrepresenting me or my argument with the same to logical fallacies.
Are you up for it?
Very very interesting. I was worried it was just another smear article fracturing the movement but actually it was a well sourced article without hysteria and you raised some good points.
I suggest you reconsider, Sam. It definitely IS a ”smear article”. Calling anyone an anti-semite without a very just and factually cause is definitely being used as a poltical tool to discredit people who raise VALID points that a certain group of people want suppressed. And that definitely IS occurring here. His whole argument relies on the two logically fallacious arguments of 1.) ad hominem and 2.) strawman misrepresentation of Prof. Miller’s actual position.
A depressing read but your bring the receipts, as ever. David Miller has done some great work on Islamophobia, etc prior to his sacking by Bristol but his recent 'journalism' has become worrying and felt as if it was veering into clickbait - your article gives this a disturbing context. Thank you for this Tony.
I hope that you get a response, and soon.